Because Ryuji was the biggest instigator of it all. in the short events leading up to the poorly placed Mona midlife crisis, Ryuji was at the front of the "Wow, you're worthless" ridicule every time. And yes, i understand people tend to point out the mid battle snark, but those lines were likely recorded first before story revisions, so it doesn't really effect the storry at all.

So you weren't a fan of that aspect I take it, Joker? What bothered me was how Haru got involved with him. Mona doesn't use the Metaverse Navigator, so how did Haru wind up saving him when he brashly infiltrated Okumura's Palace together? Come to think of it, while with Haru he could progress onward, if he gotten beaten to Hell solo and Haru's Persona was still incredibly weak to the point of not even formed yet, why was he so confident from then on that they could do it without the rest of the group? I think that bothered me more than anything else the second time around.

I say both are to blame. Obviously Ryuji instigated everything everyone else said and blew it out of context. But Morgana is also to blame for being such a little snob and not handling criticism and facts. But Ryuji is the one to have blown what the team said out of proportion and made what the team said more like they were bullying the cat.

I mean Ryuji basically spent the entirety of Futaba's Palace complaining about how Mona can't do anything. Then, once Futaba joined, started talking about how they don't need Mona anymore. So yeah, fuck Ryuji. And honestly he got off too easy.

Except Morgana spent pretty much the entire game calling Ryuji a stupid piece of shit, so I don't really see why Ryuji's suddenly the villain in all this. And I don't remember anything about Ryuji complaining about Morgana during Futaba's palace. I remember him teasing Morgana on the beach, but that's about it.

They're both at fault for constantly one upping one another. Morgana has a mouth on him, he can dish it but not take it, because he's so worried about his past. Ryuji did what any other guy would do and tossed it right back at him, but Morgana couldn't take it and flipped out. Both at fault I think.

Honestly, it was mainly both of their faults(I agree with you Togo). First and foremost, before Futaba came along, Morgana was the navigator of the bunch, but when Futaba came, she was more reliable than Morgana, which made him feel useless once Ryuji said that he is useless. Ryuji, just didn't think ahead of time nor considered how Morgana was feeling at the moment. Someone tell him to think ahead of time when that happens. Honestly, those who think Ryuji is an A-hole, Screw you, because you guys just so happen to jump into stupid conclusions

Honestly tho, Ryuji get his fair share of bullying by the other characters throughout the game, but you never see him run away. From Morgana yelling at him in the first palace to Futaba calling him "pathetic" when he misses an attack, even during the final boss. Then again, there was a lot more reasons to Morgana running away then just people pointing out that his role was taken up by Futaba and Makoto during that point in the story.

Morgana’s pretty much useless in every way possible in my opinion he’s also extremely annoying

Unless you choose support Personas for Joker, Morgana is absolutely critical through most of the game as the best healer. Makoto and Ann don't learn anything too useful until way later.

Unless you choose support Personas for Joker, Morgana is absolutely critical through most of the game as the best healer. Makoto and Ann don't learn anything too useful until way later. I did use him for support

Not quite completely useless to me. I don't like that you can't evolve his Persona until the very end of the game though, so he always feels like he's a step behind everyone else.

Not quite completely useless to me. I don't like that you can't evolve his Persona until the very end of the game though, so he always feels like he's a step behind everyone else. Yeah but to me he always was one step behind

Imo I think they should have had a few gameplay sections where you you had to fight shadows without Morgana, it would have made the player realise how much they needed him back due to his healing, maybe they could have also given given him another mechanic that the player would have missed being without. It would have made much more sence than all the characters essentially saying "you're sad about it because we're sad about it" Conveying emotion through gameplay is one if the few things that only video games can do; it didn't all have to be delegated to cutscenes.

^Yes. That whole departure thing was resolved too quickly. I actually thought Okumura's Palace would actually be a race between Joker and Morgana, and that would be its 'time limit', just to change it up.

^Yes. That whole departure thing was resolved too quickly. I actually thought Okumura's Palace would actually be a race between Joker and Morgana, and that would be its 'time limit', just to change it up. Tbh I was expecting the entire palace to be done by the time the Phantom Thieves turned up. Something like them entering and the just seeing Morgana and Haru walking past with the treasure. They could have done so many interesting things with this: I was also thinking of a playable section of just Morgana and Haru tackling a section of the Palace. It felt like the devs rushed this section of the game in order to continue with the Okumura arc quickly, when this could have been been an arc all to itself. This is the only part of the game that really fell flat with me for the amount of missed opportunities.

I mentioned before, I didn't think it even made much sense that Mogana was so confident in Haru and his ability to beat Joker and co, unless he was simply bluffing. Morgana got wailed when he tried solo and Haru's Persona was barely manifest at the time; there's no way they could've survived solo, so that kind of attitude was totally unwarranted. Unless it was just a total bluff to make them jealous, which is possible. I didn't think they'd go that far, but I was hoping for a unique twist in one of them. I guess it would've been too much trouble to change one up completely. But yeah, the least they could've done was not have Morgana for a bit longer, then you realize that you do need him without having being told to feel that way. The player feels it from the gameplay and not just the story.

I mentioned before, I didn't think it even made much sense that Mogana was so confident in Haru and his ability to beat Joker and co, unless he was simply bluffing. Morgana got wailed when he tried solo and Haru's Persona was barely manifest at the time; there's no way they could've survived solo, so that kind of attitude was totally unwarranted. Unless it was just a total bluff to make them jealous, which is possible. I didn't think they'd go that far, but I was hoping for a unique twist in one of them. I guess it would've been too much trouble to change one up completely. But yeah, the least they could've done was not have Morgana for a bit longer, then you realize that you do need him without having being told to feel that way. The player feels it from the gameplay and not just the story. Mainly just throwing ideas around tbh, although i do feel like we're on the same page regarding integrating gameplay without Morgana. You've actually changed my mind on my idea of a section with just Morgana and Haru. I think that I forgot many of the points the game brought up about his lack of ability to go it alone because it was just over so quickly. But think about all the time wasted on the stupid car chasing scene in Mementos. That time could have been used for so many other things that could have been so much more effective. The devs could have made it feel more like a mutual agreement that Morgana needs the rest of the Phantom Thieves just as much as they need him. They could have layed it out more like a mutual partnership then just Morgana coming back because he's too weak. I know that there's some dialogue options that kinda push that idea but i think it wasn't pushed as much as i could have been. Also regarding Haru's Persona being too weak, it seemed like an hamfisted attempt to have her acquire a Persona before meeting up with Phantom Thieves while still having a cool awakening cutscene. If they had just had Haru's Persona be 'full-force' from the start, which wouldn't have impacted the story at all, then i think a playable section with just Morgana and Haru could have been very viable and impactful on the player, probably up to the fight with Haru's fiance.

I get what you mean about the Mementos scene being dumb, but I think it was such only because it was too short and over so quickly. I was expecting them to do more with the concept and that it would take a lot longer to get Morgana back. But then that was all they did and it was a bit disappointing. And yeah, you're really right on with the Haru explanation, that they wanted it both ways, but at least it still does make enough sense to work. It wasn't a complete cop-out or anything. I'm more curious, however, how Haru was ever inside her father's Palace to save him in the first place. Morgana doesn't use the app to enter the Metaverse, so how did she get dragged in in the first place?

I'm more curious, however, how Haru was ever inside her father's Palace to save him in the first place. Morgana doesn't use the app to enter the Metaverse, so how did she get dragged in in the first place? Well, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall ever being told how Morgana enters the Metaverse. It's just something that 'he can do'. Maybe it works on an area around him, just like the Nav, or maybe it just sends just him alone in. We can't work it out either way, there's just not enough information to go on. Good observation tho, you have a very keen eye. I didn't even think about it before.

I only noticed the second time around. It's impossible the first, since things are still unfolding and you don't know the details, and by the time you, it's out of your mind. But again, I know Haru the inner workings of the story and it stuck out. True, it's not like it doesn't make sense, but a bit of an elaboration would've been nice. It also sticks out the gang freely activates the Nav when the bottom half of the cafe become their new hideout (or the Shibuya walkway), that either Sojiro or a large group of people aren't dragged in each time.

It also sticks out the gang freely activates the Nav when the bottom half of the cafe become their new hideout (or the Shibuya walkway), that either Sojiro or a large group of people aren't dragged in each time. Well, I was under the impression that they didn't enter that Metaverse from the hideout but that it was just a transitional animation. It is stated that they can only get back to the real world by going to the place they came in from. If they entered the Metaverse from the hideout then they would have to go back to the hideout in the Metaverse to return and they definitely don't go back to the hideout on foot each time, they end up at the entrance to the palace in the real world.

Oh, that's a good point. Of course, I think it doesn't make sense in regard to Mementos. Mementos, the Palace of ALL humanity shouldn't physically be located in Shibuya station. It's just a representation of it. I always thought with the Nav, so long as they knew the coordinates, they could enter it from wherever. Like, if the Thieves went to Paris France, they could still enter Mementos at least from there, and it would still look the same. The fact they can only find Japanese people is because they're the only ones they have the names for. For individual Palaces connected to a certain person, however, being in the proper location makes sense.

Oh, that's a good point. Of course, I think it doesn't make sense in regard to Mementos. Mementos, the Palace of ALL humanity shouldn't physically be located in Shibuya station. It's just a representation of it. I don't think Memontos is the palace of humanity itself. It's a palace of the collective unconscious. It sounds like an insignificant distinction to make but it makes scene. Remember that the Metaverse is an entirely different world in relation to the real world. They don't have any bearing on each other. The only reason that places in the Metaverse look like copies of places in the real world is because they are based on peoples cognition, not because it is alternate version of the real world: think more Midnight Channel, less Dark Hour. When you delve into Mementos, you're not facing humanity itself but societal norms and people feelings and ideologies, and they are tied down to a geographical point based on their view of the world. In my opinion it's not the whole worlds view that creates Mementos and the Holy Grail but just Japan's or Tokyo's. If we are to assume that the cognitive world spans the whole planet and is created by people's thoughts alone (as hinted at by Shido and by Wakaba's research) then it would be safe to assume that there would be multiple palaces based on the collective unconscious, as people views and opinions are different from around the world. Take this with a pitch of salt though, I've really gone out on a limb with this one.

That's an interesting point I never considered. But it does raise questions of the ending of how ridding Mementos would forever render the Thieves moot. Otherwise, why not just find a different collective consciousness on another continent? To me, I feel that kind of cements that it has to be ALL of humanity, and not just Japan. But, who can say for sure.

That's an interesting point I never considered. But it does raise questions of the ending of how ridding Mementos would forever render the Thieves moot. Otherwise, why not just find a different collective consciousness on another continent? To me, I feel that kind of cements that it has to be ALL of humanity, and not just Japan. But, who can say for sure. There's just not alot to go on. I think that it was meant to be something the player wasn't expected to think about too much.

I actually think the opposite. They left it open so players COULD think about it more and expand upon what it really is. There's too much attention to detail in the story for them not to want people to discuss. Too many interesting ideas, so I guess it's inevitable we'll all have our theories.