*cough* japanese culture is different from american *cough*

A few things to note 1. Confidants are not mandatory, they are extra, they’re additional options to the side, it’s not like the game is making you spend time with older women. 2. You can max out confidants without dating them, it essentially gives you a choice whether to date or remain friends at the end, and either option results in confidant completion. 3. I don’t like to talk about Ryuji, I find it a little sad that he is so consistently used for comedic relief, especially since Yusuke’s obliviousness makes him more suited for it. 4. On the mysoginism, if I remember correctly that was primarily Kamoshida’s palace, and was in fact the entire point, that mysoginistic perverts like him are not the way to go. 5. You’re seriously going to judge a game that’s easily 30 hours game time, probably more, based on maybe overusing a dumb joke? As far as I am concerned it’s not particularly homophobic, simply silly as intended

i cant believe that pedophilia, homophobia, etc are important cultural themes that are somehow acceptable outside of north america (sarcasm)

@Luard oooookay firstly the fact that they made the option available at all is straight fucked up. it shouldnt have even been included, mandatory or not. a 16 year old boys homeroom teacher appearing to him in his room in a maid dress, a 30+ yr old woman telling her boss that shes dating said 16 yr old boy in a (mandatory) highly uncomfortable confidant cutscene, etc is not cute or acceptable in any way, shape, or form. this is not limited to north america, japans age of consent is also 18 and people have been arrested for not adhering to it i agree with you on ryuji, hes a character who has so much deeper purpose and meaning, and they completely squandered every opportunity they had to really flesh him out in favor of making him a downright creep for laughs (and often at the expense of ann or other female characters in the same breath). i honestly cant stand ryuji for most of the game because of this, but when he shines, he shines. the OUTRIGHT, LABELED misogyny was in kamoshidas palace. there was far more misogyny taking place after kamoshida, such as the beach scene(s), ryujis (and other male characters) general treatment of the female cast for the rest of the game (particularly morgana), the plots mistreatment of ann, and so on. it isnt called out as misogyny by the cast like they did during kamoshidas palace, but its there, like it or not. its DEFINITELY homophobic. STRONGLY homophobic. how is a joke where two adult stereotypically feminine gay men harass and chase around teenage boys, not once, not twice, but in excess of THREE TIMES as a running joke not homophobic? it plays into all the damaging tropes surrounding the gay community in japan and overseas and uses it as comedy. this, compounded by the fact that there are no gay romance options in p5 (despite it being available in p2, which came out in 1999), makes it stand out as particularly gross to me and yes actually, i will judge the game based on these facts. this does not mean that i condemn it, i just believe in calling shit like it is and not dancing around the issues with media that i consume.

@Queef hell yea

@Queef hell yea oh yis bb ahn

@Queef hey wanna answer a riddle. i have keys but no locks. i have a space but no room. you can enter, but cant go outside. what am i?

@Queef hey wanna answer a riddle. i have keys but no locks. i have a space but no room. you can enter, but cant go outside. what am i? my pussy? A keyboard

@Queef What tastes better that it smells?

My cat?

My cat? A tongue.

To be fair I think you are looking a little too far into a couple of dumb things and finding meaning where they didn't intend. Littering jokes and encounters to lighten the mood. Not everything has symbolism. Being able to date 3 older women doesn't exactly seem that bad? The character is 16. Practically an adult, as long as both parties consent I really don't see the issue. Its 2 years off the age of consent, and to be frank age of consent law is pretty dumb in it of itself when you get into technicalities. But that's a topic for another time. The gay joke should just be taken for what it is. A joke. Sure it was dumb and drawn out. But I doubt Atlus meant anything. I believe its just playing off the trope of feminine men in anime. As for the differences in gay romance options. Uh, perhaps a character isn't gay? Might be as simple as that. Even so, P2 came out when person was still a niche series and came out under different game direction iirc. Ryujii was mostly comic relief and easy comic relief bucks is pervert jokes. Low hanging fruit for anime. I do believe his character could have done without it. But it's not persona without having a wacky side kick at times. Misogyny I don't exactly see? You'll have to explain that as if anything the female characters in P5 were the least objectified. All in all its really not a big deal. I can barely remember these things even happen. Dating Taekemi, Kawakami or Ohya, while not my tastes, didn't even come across as illegal or wrong. The gay jokes were just forgettable dumb jokes. Misogyny I didn't even detect a hint of while playing except for Kamoshida. Even then it was the whole point of it. Judging P5 on these facts feel kinda... Petty?

1. Again, most of these cases are extremely optional, in Ohya’s case (the woman telling her boss she was dating a kid) it is expressly stated that they aren’t actually dating yet, it’s simply a cover-up for what she’s actually doing. If you didn’t catch that, you missed the whole point of her confidant. As for the maid situation, this one is a cultural difference, in Japan part-time jobs such as a maid service are fairly common, its only as bad as you decide to make it. 2. We agree that what happened to Ryuji was tragic, so not much more to say here. 3. First off, you do realize Morgana is a guy, right? I mean technically they might be considered genderless due to their condition as a shapeshifter and embodiment of humanity’s hope or something The important part is that Morgana identifies as a guy, and their crush on Ann is played for laughs with Ann repeatedly rejecting him because, you know, he’s obviously not human. As for the rest of the mysogyny, the only extreme cases involve the minor villains, such as Haru’s father trying to marry her off to some rich guy, which is again the developers saying it is NOT ok 4. There hasn’t been a gay romance option since at least P3 (I cannot say for earlier as I have not played the first two), it just isn’t much of a thing in RPGs yet, much as I can complain about it in some cases, overall it’s nothing to make a fuss over. Now, back to the two men, honestly I see them as part of the Ryuji problem, he just seems like a catalyst for tasteless jokes. Yeah, it’s dumb, but it’s hardly important, so I prefer to move on Some of these complaints are making me wonder if this is intended as a joke or not, but for now I’ll continue taking it seriously

@Luard my issue is that they put in those types of conversations at all. when a minor is concerned, those types of things shouldnt be said by an adult, not even as a joke or a "cover up". the whole exchange was clunky and awkward, and if they couldnt think of any other excuse for her to use then its just bad writing. thats all. and with the maid thing, i could care less if it was just some maid, thats not my hang up. what bothers me is that shes the protagonists teacher, an adult in his life who has power and authority over him. she shouldnt be associating with him like that, and any responsible adult with a conscience would think likewise. these types of interactions come across as super creepy and waifu-baity, and water down the whole "adults need to treat minors less like crap" narrative that p5 banks on by treating it like its no big deal. ... yeah? i do know that morgana is a guy? i sort of jumbled my typing there, i meant that morgana was the one doing the misogynistic shit. if you really wanted examples of the casual misogyny in the game, i could go through a playthrough and mark them down for you? (sarcasm) otherwise i dont know how you expect me to list specific examples since i last played the game maybe a month ago. unfortunately, i beg to differ. lack of lgbt representation in a game that claims "standing up against oppression" as its main theme, especially when compared to all the homophobia/transphobia in the series since p3, is *extremely* shitty and disappointing. i agree that the homophobic joke is part of the "ryuji problem", but its much more than just that. like i said before, respresentation is everything, and as long as games' sole gay rep comes in the form of the most overused, predatory joke in the book, it affects the lives of gay people in reality. its hard to just move on when you recognize that. what about this comes across as a joke? should i just lay down and accept that its not a big deal for a minor to date a woman easily twice his age, ryuji constantly perving on girls as funny and inconsequential, and blatant homophobia and anything but insultful? i made this thread to talk about my personal opinions on the games flaws, not to get into a keyboard war.

Alright, so what I’m getting from this is that teachers aren’t allowed to be humans with part-time jobs, doing something illegal is a TERRIBLE reason to be sneaking around with a young boy, an overused gag in a niche game will ruin real lives and (as we all knew) Ryuji is a terrible and flanderized character In summary, while you have some points regarding their treatment of gays, as far as confidants go you’re really missing the forest for the trees

I'm honestly having a hard time understanding the logic around Kawakami, someone with a position of power over Ren, having this sort of close relationship with him, is in conflict with the idea of adults not treating kids like garbage. It's not like she's forcing anything on him. You can just ignore her if you wanted. If I misunderstood your argument there, sorry, but that is just how it came across to me.

no lgbt characters =/= homophobic/transphobic

Still, it would be nice if Atlus let us be gay. Looking at you, cut Yosuke content (but at least we get Jun in P2)

So, Teachers shouldn't be maids, which I'm pretty sure (and please correct me here because it's been a while) was part of the confident, Morgana and Ryuji are terrible and definitely purposely misogynistic people and we really need a Persona 2 remake of both games this time, Atlus, so we can have a gay option. Did I miss anything?

@Luard i dont know how many different ways i can find to say the same things, but here goes kawakami - totally allowed to do the maid job, thats her call, i support her in that - fucked up that shes using a high school kid to do that job, especially when its implied that the maid service shes with also offers sexual services (she alludes to this in dialogue) - majorly fucked up that shes okay with dating and having an intimate relationship with a minor who is not only a high schooler, but actually one of her own students (she is supposed to be responsible for those students, so what shes doing isnt just freakish but also an abuse of authority) ohya - the whole thing with her and ren is just completely unnecessary she couldve used any other excuse besides "hey bossman im fucking this 16 yr old" to cover for herself, so the choice to include that was completely on the devs (which is sketchy as hell) - ESPECIALLY considering that it later becomes an option to date her - plus she has flirted with the protag (who she knew and verbally acknowledged to be underage) pretty much consistently throughout their interactions "feminine gay guys chase high school boys around" joke - firstly, how in the hell is persona 5 a "niche" game? im pretty sure it made the charts as one of the most talked-about and critically acclaimed games of its release year. thats a lot of exposure for this joke. and even if it was a "niche" game, how does that make it any better? - i never said that it would "ruin" anyones life, just that it has real world implications and consequences. a lot of real people feel uncomfortable with themselves enough already, without having p5 making tasteless gay jokes at every corner. it says a lot about atlus that they dont really care about the (large) portion of the persona fanbase who are gay and could be affected by these things in favor of pandering to their straight fanbase ryuji - i want to love him but (for the most part) i cannot - hes a good boy somewhere deep down, i know it - on a more serious note, its kind of fucked up that they chose for ryuji to be the perverted misogynistic dudebro, given that in his childhood his mother (who is a single mother and raised him with loving care) and him were abused by his father pretty heavily and apparently atlus never thought that that might influence his treatment of women later on in life really im just sort of sad and confused that atlus would give the OK for all of this stuff to be added to the final game when it conflicts with a most of the themes they tried so hard to convey. it weakens the experience, in my opinion, and i feel that it would be a better game overall if it wasnt included.

i want atlus to let me be gay, even if it's for the goddamn cat

Remake every game and add gay options in all of them. Actually just give the option to play as Male or Female in every game and make all NPCs bisexual, problem solved.

Remake every game and add gay options in all of them. this

Kawakami- You do realize that the protagonist calls and chooses to hire her, right, not the other way around? She literally can't refuse to deal with one of her students unless she wants to lose her job, you make it sound like she's a sexual predator, when in fact if anyone you're the pervert. Ohya- If there are so many better excuses for an older woman to be meeting with an underaged boy in secret, then please, give an example. Believe it or not, some people flirt meaninglessly. Wow, astonishing. And once more, you're the one who chooses to date or not, its not forced on you, if you don't want to have any options, Persona might not be for you. We already kinda agreed on the last two, I don't believe the gays are nearly as big of a deal as you're making of it, but its kinda whatever

Either way, Atlus does what Atlus does. There's some rough parts in P5, but to be honest, part of liking a game is understanding its flaws. We can't really change what the developers did, and even if it isn't perfect, that doesn't mean it necessarily ruins the game itself. And besides, some of this stuff you can do is totally optional, and the stuff that's a constant... well, that kinda sucks, but we can deal with it I guess. Of course, if this ruins aspects of the game for you, then that's fine. But if not, sometimes you need to understand what's wrong with something to truly enjoy it. Kinda hard to explain.

So I looked it up because I got bored and officially Ren's birth date is around 1999, so he's 17 or 18, but not 16, at least that's what I like to think because of 20XX. However, if Chie is a cop now and Rise is on tour, we can safely assume around 5 years after 2012, or Persona 4, so 2017, which fits. Additionally, Japan's own school code proves that the average 2nd-year Japanese high school student is 17-18 years old. I can also see Kawakami being around 24 or 25, though that hasn't been officially released yet, though that's the internets general thoughts. And, if it makes you feel any better, Japan's age of consent is 17 years old, so Ren is legal. Not saying it makes it any better, Just pointing some things out And yes. I got REALLY bored.

@Luard bud both those points are moot. the responsibility rests with the legal adult of the situation, and its their duty to say no. even if its what the minor wants, they cant go along with it, and if they do then theyre crossing the line.

@Fayth i appreciate your researching it, but im afraid that without credible official sources i cant just accept that as fact for the purpose of this discussion. the facts as i know them are that the protag is referred to in-game as a minor on multiple occasions, so thats what im going off of

@PrimPrim that was my whole thing from the beginning actually. i never said that i hated the game or that it was ruined because of this stuff, just that it would be a whole lot better without it. in fact, its one of my favorite games from the past two years. that said, its not good to just say "hm, i guess that just how it is" and let it slide. this stuff isnt ok, and we need to recognize that. if we make our stance on including this kind of content in persona games widely known, then it would be impractical for them to do it anyway. the fans have the final say.

Well, since you asked. Japan's age of consent, which is actually 13 but certain areas have their own laws about it, so it's 17 in Tokyo): https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/japan School year group ages in Japan: http://www.mcic.or.jp/e_lifestyle/e-education.html Since the others were from Wiki's (Megami Tensei Wiki) and GameFAQs, I won't post them and claim them to be legitimate sources because I do history and know a thing or two about credible sources, but you can find them by searching the right things, I'm sure. As for the times they are referred to as a minor, and again correct me if I'm wrong cause it's been a while since I beat the game, but I think the bartender in the place Ohya is in calls Akira/ Ren/ Whatever a minor in terms of alcohol and I think that's it. I imagine being too young to drink and too young to have sex, which I'm assuming is what your talking about correct me if I'm wrong, are different in Japan just like in America or the UK (20 to drink. 13-17 to have sex In Japan). I feel like I'm bringing to much realism into this game about kids going into peoples heads to steal their evil desires by summoning mythological creatures. At least you enjoy that part of the game, so I can't fauly you that much. I always like a good conversation, but I'm bowing out of this one, at least for now. Until next time.

Fair point. I guess cultural norms, laws, etc. influence these things as well. Still a bit weird to date with that age gap to me, but makes sense in context. And I agree that it should be brought to attention, Megi, but it frankly doesn't feel like much of a problem in the grand scheme of things.

then im afraid we'll all have to agree to disagree. its my firm belief that a relationship between a high school student and a grown adult (especially a teacher) is wrong no matter what, due to an inherent imbalance in power. it will never be okay, no matter where in the world it takes place. it makes me uncomfortable to witness, even in fiction, and the same goes for most other people. conversation over.

conversation over. My ass. This conversation isn't over if this thread isn't locked. Also; The protag consents. It's his choice to date older women, and I'm pretty sure at least one of them says how fucked up that is.

My ass. This conversation isn't over if this thread isn't locked. look buddy, when i say conversations over, i mean im not willing to debate it with you anymore. ive already made my stance perfectly clear, youre not going to change my mind and im obviously not going to change yours. you can banter among yourselves all you want until the threads locked but this is my last post in it.