So, as far as I'm concerned, a lot of people either hate, love, or don't know how to feel about Akechi. I'd place myself on the latter, but closer toward hating him. In my opinion, he gives off a lot of tones that would make him out to be a very well written villain, maybe even more well written then Adachi from P4. However, I can't deny that he has some "tragic hero" undertones to him. Forget the fact that he sacrificed himself in the end (or at least don't make it a leading argument), but critically think about his motives, and the actions he took as a result of them.
The way I see it, he lived a fucked life, no doubt about that. Mother died, and Shido left him to be a bastard-child. Of course this would mess someone up pretty bad. But it's what he then the course of action, on his own volition, that he decided to take that has swayed me into labeling him as a villain, and very well constructed one.
Tl;dr, fuck that guy....but maybe in a "yo let's hit the sheets" kinda way?
All that said, I'd love to get some input and opinions on this subject.
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Akechi's a victim of his life circumstances and he knows it. He even says to Akira at one point how he wishes they could have met two years earlier (before all the Shido stuff started).
too much words
man, am i glad that you mentioned that he started his line of work of his own volition!! so many people seem to be too eager to totally ignore that!!
@Migrant
Oh, I understand that. But the thing is, he still did what he did. He still caused the mental break downs, he still tried to kill the Phantom Thieves, ESPECIALLY Akira.
Sacrificing yourself is a good deed and all, but the way I see it, it isn't enough to balance out all the shitty things he did.
Oh, I understand that. But the thing is, he still did what he did. He still caused the mental break downs, he still tried to kill the Phantom Thieves, ESPECIALLY Akira.
Sacrificing yourself is a good deed and all, but the way I see it, it isn't enough to balance out all the shitty things he did.
@pure-anon
Exactly. That's what motivated me to create this thread.
But while I have my opinion, I am in no way trying to bash opinions that differ mine. Rather, I genuinely want to have a discussion about this, because it's something that's erked me since I beat the game last week.
Exactly. That's what motivated me to create this thread.
But while I have my opinion, I am in no way trying to bash opinions that differ mine. Rather, I genuinely want to have a discussion about this, because it's something that's erked me since I beat the game last week.
Oh sure. I'm saying he's very much a tragic villain, though. Not like Takaya or Adachi where they basically were killing people because they could.
Hm. A tragic villain. I can see that, sure.
I'll always love Adachi, because the twist of him turning out to be the killer was so out of left field that I fucking flipped in a good way. But Goro is much more well written and constructed, much more fleshed out.
I'll always love Adachi, because the twist of him turning out to be the killer was so out of left field that I fucking flipped in a good way. But Goro is much more well written and constructed, much more fleshed out.
Tragic Villain I would say.
Though he was driven to get back at his shitty father, what he did was still shitty, and he still did his fathers dirty work. Not mention trying to kill Akira and eventually everyone else.
But yes, he was driven to madness essentially, much like Adachi but less sad.
Honestly, I wasn't terribly emotionally effected by Akechis betrayal as it would have been. I didn't like Akechi from the moment I saw him, I found him to be stuck up and snobby. Learning his past made me pity him, sure, but I just never liked the guy at the end of the day. I think things wouldn't have turned out like they did in different circumstances though. It's a shame.
Though he was driven to get back at his shitty father, what he did was still shitty, and he still did his fathers dirty work. Not mention trying to kill Akira and eventually everyone else.
But yes, he was driven to madness essentially, much like Adachi but less sad.
Honestly, I wasn't terribly emotionally effected by Akechis betrayal as it would have been. I didn't like Akechi from the moment I saw him, I found him to be stuck up and snobby. Learning his past made me pity him, sure, but I just never liked the guy at the end of the day. I think things wouldn't have turned out like they did in different circumstances though. It's a shame.
i disagree with him being tragic!!
the "ace detective" thing he had going was totally unrelated to his initial goal!! he did it out of pure conceit and he absolutely loved it!!
don't forget how many people he killed!! the game opens with 80 casualties by his hand!!
the "ace detective" thing he had going was totally unrelated to his initial goal!! he did it out of pure conceit and he absolutely loved it!!
don't forget how many people he killed!! the game opens with 80 casualties by his hand!!
I feel like Atlus didn't bother to hide Akechi's betrayal unlike Adachi. I was actually more surprised he had a Heel-Face Turn after we kicked his ass than I was he he was a traitor all along. Figured we'd just outright kill him and he'd be a madman with no good points.
@AdachiImouto
Oh, no doubt. Had he and Akira met two years prior as he had mentioned, he could've easily been a valuable asset, as someone who potentially also had the ability of the wild card. But then again, if you really think about it, would they have managed to learn of Shido's involvement and atrocious acts? Because remember, it was because Akechi made the mistake of saying his name that they found out Shido's plan. But then again, you could also say he wouldn't have been able to do as much damage without Akechi's help in the Metaverse.
Oh, no doubt. Had he and Akira met two years prior as he had mentioned, he could've easily been a valuable asset, as someone who potentially also had the ability of the wild card. But then again, if you really think about it, would they have managed to learn of Shido's involvement and atrocious acts? Because remember, it was because Akechi made the mistake of saying his name that they found out Shido's plan. But then again, you could also say he wouldn't have been able to do as much damage without Akechi's help in the Metaverse.
Actually, speaking of Akechi and the Wild Card, had he met Joker two years earlier would YHVH even have chosen him as the other player in his game?
I can also see your points, @pure-anon. The ace detective shtick didn't really matter much to his goal, he probably would have been better off without all that fame, because then the Phantom Thieves would have been less likely to have met him, and have their suspicions.
But. It was also because he was an ace detective that they accepted his help for Sae Niijima's palace.
And yeah, @Migrant, another valid point.
But. It was also because he was an ace detective that they accepted his help for Sae Niijima's palace.
And yeah, @Migrant, another valid point.
YHVH has a track record of being a dick, so probably.
I'm more interested in what Lavenza said near the end of the game, where before the fake Igor got involved, it was supposed to be Akira vs. Akechi, and the world would remain the same or be destroyed and reborn depending on who won. That is very very SMT.
I wonder why it shouldn't have been the other way way around. I feel like Akechi should have been Law and Joker Chaos in that case. I don't see Akechi as the type to just wipe the world out, when it was heavily implied he wanted to kill Shido and take his spot as overlord.
I'm more interested in what Lavenza said near the end of the game, where before the fake Igor got involved, it was supposed to be Akira vs. Akechi, and the world would remain the same or be destroyed and reborn depending on who won. That is very very SMT.
I wonder why it shouldn't have been the other way way around. I feel like Akechi should have been Law and Joker Chaos in that case. I don't see Akechi as the type to just wipe the world out, when it was heavily implied he wanted to kill Shido and take his spot as overlord.
THAT'S ALSO A GOOD POINT. And yeah, veeeeeeery SMT like. Part of me wants for more SMT aspects to be put in for P6, whenever that may end up happening. Especially the alignment mechanic, which I feel would be great for determining your ending, and driving story narrative.
If we're going to be very specific about alignments, to add on to @AdachiImouto said, Akechi would have most likely be Lawful /Evil,/ while Joker would have been Chaotic /Good./
If we're going to be very specific about alignments, to add on to @AdachiImouto said, Akechi would have most likely be Lawful /Evil,/ while Joker would have been Chaotic /Good./
Yeah because we can see what looks like the framework of the "original" (in-universe) P5 plot. Shido
(lol it ate my comment)
Yeah because we can see what looks like the framework of the "original" (in-universe) P5 plot. Shido
Yeah because we can see what looks like the framework of the "original" (in-universe) P5 plot. Shido
Okay now the site's just being weird.
Yeah, they did kind of give him away as an antagonist. Like, right when they introduced him I kinda called it, "There's no way this is gonna be a one-off encounter with this guy."
i think you guys have law and chaos backwards here!! though they both fall more into the neutral category!!
akechi only cared about getting back at shido, and didn't care about what he had to do or who he had to trample on to get his way!! in smt terms, that's way more chaotic!!
joker cares more about defending those who cannot defend themselves and punishing those that go against his sense of justice!! the bad end you get by accepting yabba dabba doo's deal is also more reminiscent of a world of law!!
however, neither of them are motivated by changing the state of the world to match their ideals outside of that one bad ending!! they are very personally motivated, which historically falls under the alignment of neutrality!!
akechi only cared about getting back at shido, and didn't care about what he had to do or who he had to trample on to get his way!! in smt terms, that's way more chaotic!!
joker cares more about defending those who cannot defend themselves and punishing those that go against his sense of justice!! the bad end you get by accepting yabba dabba doo's deal is also more reminiscent of a world of law!!
however, neither of them are motivated by changing the state of the world to match their ideals outside of that one bad ending!! they are very personally motivated, which historically falls under the alignment of neutrality!!
Yeah, there was no way he wasn't gonna be critical. But what I was TRYING (before the site had a seizure) to point out was the stuff his cronies said after his change of heart and how that seems to indicate that they were the agents of destruction and rebirth. While the Thieves would have kept things the same, which was what YHVH wanted.
Well, I was looking at the alignments in the D
The fuck? Shit cut up my response.
Yeah welcome to my tragedy up there. Site seems to be having periodic glitches and if you try to post during one it eats your reply.
Ugh. What I meant to say was that I was looking at the alignments from a D
gOD DAMMIT SITE.
What I MEANT to say was that I was looking at the alignments from a DnD perspective, pure_anon.
To heavily pearaphrase, DnD describes a Chaotic Good individual as one who does good acts, and good deeds, but does them in a manner which breaks the law, and goes against it. The best example would be Robinhood.
To heavily pearaphrase, DnD describes a Chaotic Good individual as one who does good acts, and good deeds, but does them in a manner which breaks the law, and goes against it. The best example would be Robinhood.
It's a great cutoff spot tho.
**paraphrase
I like his character, but understanding his motives doesn't excuse him from being a murderer.
I'm going with "Complete asshole".
He had his powers 2 years prior to the game, and came after Shido, in some self serving fashion to try and mastermind minipulate himself to his side, only to kill him later.
Akechi literally is not salvageable, and was corrupt from the start. He was a minipulative bastard who did nothing but toy with people.
And to be honest, his final act of freeing the crew actually made very little sense, while also going against his character setup. The only explainable way for his actions is that the legit started to see Joker as a friend through his insanity.
Tragic hero, he is not.
He had his powers 2 years prior to the game, and came after Shido, in some self serving fashion to try and mastermind minipulate himself to his side, only to kill him later.
Akechi literally is not salvageable, and was corrupt from the start. He was a minipulative bastard who did nothing but toy with people.
And to be honest, his final act of freeing the crew actually made very little sense, while also going against his character setup. The only explainable way for his actions is that the legit started to see Joker as a friend through his insanity.
Tragic hero, he is not.
incoherent ramble, sorry:
Akechi is neither one or the other completely (personal opinion is I like him well enough). I don't think it's really a matter if whether or not his actions up to when he died balanced out or similar...I think it matters more that he had the potential to grow after being manipulated into his situation (but obviously he couldn't since he sacrificed himself). Plus, there's a reason the game makes a point of the PT offering to accept him back even though some of them state what Akechi did wasn't forgivable regardless of his story. P5 is in part about irresponsible adults fucking up lives for younger people who don't know any better, thus creating a cycle. The PT recognize that, but also see that Akechi, with his visible regret (it is obvious, right? that he doesn't want to kill people?) and not yet an adult, has the potential to get better.
I talked about it before, but I still think the treatment of bastard children in Japan is something to keep in mind for Akechi's development and motives (and the nature of Japanese society in general), ESPECIALLY since it's the basis of why he has no positive support systems ever in his life until the PT, to which he then already had his father.
Someone already pointed out he's a victim of his life's circumstances and he knows it; I would like to add on Akechi likely feels helpless about his regret and deludes himself by hyperfixtating on his initial motive as the only solution (p5 is, after all,
Akechi is neither one or the other completely (personal opinion is I like him well enough). I don't think it's really a matter if whether or not his actions up to when he died balanced out or similar...I think it matters more that he had the potential to grow after being manipulated into his situation (but obviously he couldn't since he sacrificed himself). Plus, there's a reason the game makes a point of the PT offering to accept him back even though some of them state what Akechi did wasn't forgivable regardless of his story. P5 is in part about irresponsible adults fucking up lives for younger people who don't know any better, thus creating a cycle. The PT recognize that, but also see that Akechi, with his visible regret (it is obvious, right? that he doesn't want to kill people?) and not yet an adult, has the potential to get better.
I talked about it before, but I still think the treatment of bastard children in Japan is something to keep in mind for Akechi's development and motives (and the nature of Japanese society in general), ESPECIALLY since it's the basis of why he has no positive support systems ever in his life until the PT, to which he then already had his father.
Someone already pointed out he's a victim of his life's circumstances and he knows it; I would like to add on Akechi likely feels helpless about his regret and deludes himself by hyperfixtating on his initial motive as the only solution (p5 is, after all,
a melodrama) - otherwise, Akechi could refuse to continue his work any further, but that seems to mean probable death.
Also, I would like to state/clairfy Akechi did not begin killing people until well after Shido began manipulating him (just in case, bc I've seen that to be a rather common misunderstanding after the localization). The English translation makes this really unclear because they don't distinguish between "psychotic breakdowns" and "mental shutdowns" well enough IMO (but my JP is shit so). Akechi offered his beserk power, but that itself isn't the ability to murder, nor was that Akechi's intention. Shido manipulates him into doing that (also kinda unclear w/ localization).
The original imo also makes a better distinction between Akechi wanting to fit in vs worrying about his public image - the latter the English places more emphasis on; the former serves to highlight to the audience Akechi's loneliness [as a bastard child] and need for acceptance in a society all about fitting in (and again is in line with the game's themes).
blah blah There's a lot to talk about how Akechi came to be the way he is but even when I'm trying not to go in depth this is already way too long. Sorry.
Also, I would like to state/clairfy Akechi did not begin killing people until well after Shido began manipulating him (just in case, bc I've seen that to be a rather common misunderstanding after the localization). The English translation makes this really unclear because they don't distinguish between "psychotic breakdowns" and "mental shutdowns" well enough IMO (but my JP is shit so). Akechi offered his beserk power, but that itself isn't the ability to murder, nor was that Akechi's intention. Shido manipulates him into doing that (also kinda unclear w/ localization).
The original imo also makes a better distinction between Akechi wanting to fit in vs worrying about his public image - the latter the English places more emphasis on; the former serves to highlight to the audience Akechi's loneliness [as a bastard child] and need for acceptance in a society all about fitting in (and again is in line with the game's themes).
blah blah There's a lot to talk about how Akechi came to be the way he is but even when I'm trying not to go in depth this is already way too long. Sorry.
@Ari3s i think it'd be more appropriate to examine alignment through the lens of smt since they do write all of their games with that structure!!
@joker i think his final act does actually make sense!! given the revelations of shido's awareness of all of akechi's motivations, and the fact that the phantom thieves greatly outpower him, the only way for him to achieve his goal of revenge against shido was through the phantom thieves!! which makes him even less tragic, since he can't even sacrifice himself without being self-serving about it!!
@joker i think his final act does actually make sense!! given the revelations of shido's awareness of all of akechi's motivations, and the fact that the phantom thieves greatly outpower him, the only way for him to achieve his goal of revenge against shido was through the phantom thieves!! which makes him even less tragic, since he can't even sacrifice himself without being self-serving about it!!
@pure-anon
That's actually a very fair point.
That's actually a very fair point.
A very well put argument, @Joker.
He's an ass, a smelly one at that.
I have to say I'm quite proud of the discussion this has been so far.
Definitely no hero, but the kind of villain he was is definitely up for debate.
He's an ass, a smelly one at that.
I have to say I'm quite proud of the discussion this has been so far.
Definitely no hero, but the kind of villain he was is definitely up for debate.
The thing about teenager vs adult is important to me, along with him having no support system, especially since the distinction is intensified within P5's melodramatic atmosphere. It's the whole thing about "adults should be responsible and guide children" but as a bastard child Akechi doesn't recieve that sort of attention at all.
@Souji Seta i'm sorry, but you are absolutely incorrect!! in the cutscenes after joker's faked death, when akechi and shido are gloating about their past victories, akechi DIRECTLY STATES that he caused mental shutdowns and psychotic breakdowns to convince shido of his abilities!!
he was not ordered to do those!! he did them of his own volition, also knowing that he would be ordered to do more in the future!!
he was not ordered to do those!! he did them of his own volition, also knowing that he would be ordered to do more in the future!!
@pure-anon hold on I'll be back to give more detail but it's actually that scene in particular that 1. Wasn't translated well and 2. Highlights how badly the localized version doesn't specify what "psychotic breakdowns" and "mental shutdowns" are
I think part of the reason his sacrifice seems so weird is how quick the turnaround from him going absolutely insane and spouting off about how he hates the entire group and how everyone has just been a stepping stone to his revenge, and the PThieves forgiving him, and then to his sacrifice.
That was the span of two cutscenes and one fight. Heck, his entire story arc as anything other than side threat took place in the span of a month and a half.
If we'd first ran into him as Black Mask back during, say, Kaneshiro's Palace and he'd been a reoccuring villain that Akechi was revealed as, with all kinds of "come join us" opportunities, him coming to see the PThieves as friends would make more sense.
That was the span of two cutscenes and one fight. Heck, his entire story arc as anything other than side threat took place in the span of a month and a half.
If we'd first ran into him as Black Mask back during, say, Kaneshiro's Palace and he'd been a reoccuring villain that Akechi was revealed as, with all kinds of "come join us" opportunities, him coming to see the PThieves as friends would make more sense.
That's....actually really well pointed out, @Migrant.
But you also have to take into account that people in real-life tend to flip like that abruptly, too.
But you also have to take into account that people in real-life tend to flip like that abruptly, too.
It doesn't matter what led him to it, Aketchi's actions are unforgivable.
Also true. No doubt he's a villain. But what kind is what's being debated here.
If you look at things from his perspective; his dad left him, his mom worked herself to death, and no one wanted him in the world. Then, Akechi gets this unique power that no one else has. He put both his natural investigative skills and his new power to finally make himself worth anything to the world. Then, these nobodies come along and completely upstage him. He's unforgivable, but it's kind of sad how things turned out.
^^^^^^^This.
hmm honestly i feel like the way akechi was written was a bit too much of a trainwreck for me to judge. theres some interesting stuff that points towards the game wanting to make him a tragic victim of fate and stuff i think though. like i was on ng+ and he has the sad sprite when mentioning that he never wouldve guessed how to change hearts. and during an instant messaging bit he talks about the possibility of the culprit being controlled? plus the final social link texts say he regrets how things ended up and your wishes become one in the end iirc. i feel like its important to note that he was maybe 14? 15? when he got his persona and didnt have morgana, the literal embodiment of hope to teach him how to use it. ultimately i think i might read into things too much haha and i dont like him as he is currently written. i imagine itll be fixed in a rerelease though? i wouldve liked to clear up how much he was forced or not forced into doing several things and what he really felt at the end. the death felt really cheap too?? like you watched these super strong teens take down all kinds of things but have to save them from your cognitive self and more random shadows, ok.
One thing I will never understand about that sacrifice is why. We just kicked his ass, twice. And Goro already shot his cognitive version. To the point where one more (or two more if you believe he lived) shots finished him off.
4 shadows as backup or not, I think we had a real chance.
4 shadows as backup or not, I think we had a real chance.
god I need food
@pure-anon ...Actually, although I'm not double checking directly myself, I have no recollection of Akechi saying he caused mental shutdowns to approach Shido, only that he turned people psychotic...could you refer to the direct quote you're thinking of?
more clarification:
廃人化 = “mental shutdowns†= it’s really just apathy syndrome，but to the extreme in some cases that it causes death。thinking about it，this actually confuses me in the original too, but it’s definitely not the same as “pychotic breakdown"
暴走事件/暴走事件 = “psychotic breakdown†- this is what Akechi offers to Shido because this is what his power is，and only his power。he does not offer to murder。It is Shido who says he feels the Metaverse should be used differently。
。。。but IMO， this translation of 暴走事件 feels too literal。What Akechi’s power does is cause people to lose control of their actions and then forget what they did，which is what he did with Shido's competitors years back。it's more something along “reckless behavior†or whatever。does not cause death however
sorry I get a feeling I didn't clarify at all but im just tired from exams ｂｙnow Iｃï½ï½Žï¼‡ï½”　ｃï½ï½’ï½…
@pure-anon ...Actually, although I'm not double checking directly myself, I have no recollection of Akechi saying he caused mental shutdowns to approach Shido, only that he turned people psychotic...could you refer to the direct quote you're thinking of?
more clarification:
廃人化 = “mental shutdowns†= it’s really just apathy syndrome，but to the extreme in some cases that it causes death。thinking about it，this actually confuses me in the original too, but it’s definitely not the same as “pychotic breakdown"
暴走事件/暴走事件 = “psychotic breakdown†- this is what Akechi offers to Shido because this is what his power is，and only his power。he does not offer to murder。It is Shido who says he feels the Metaverse should be used differently。
。。。but IMO， this translation of 暴走事件 feels too literal。What Akechi’s power does is cause people to lose control of their actions and then forget what they did，which is what he did with Shido's competitors years back。it's more something along “reckless behavior†or whatever。does not cause death however
sorry I get a feeling I didn't clarify at all but im just tired from exams ｂｙnow Iｃï½ï½Žï¼‡ï½”　ｃï½ï½’ï½…
By the way, although I kinda "support" Akechi, nor do I think the game meant it to be seen this way...but Akechi's death to me sometimes felt like he was choosing to escape from all his wrongs rather than having to work to correct them by living. to me it felt like he could've escaped that situation easily anyway
Akechi is a baka if you ask me.
The English translation also does a bad job of differentiating the two outcomes. Because early game they talk about interviewing the people causing the accidents and that they had no recollection of the action.
Then later on one of the cognitions on Shido's Ship says that he ordered mental shutdowns on public transit operators.
Then later on one of the cognitions on Shido's Ship says that he ordered mental shutdowns on public transit operators.
ohh that translation info is cool, i didnt know any of that. i thought you wouldve been refering to justice rank 9/10 being a little off. i think morganas line about akechi not hating joker was more literally you like joker in jpn? doesnt affect much though storywise but fun fact i guess
@souji seta they have a conversation about shido's political opponents attempting to shut him down early in his career!! it's at that point that shido was approached by akechi, who offered to take care of his opponents!! shido says he "wouldn't have believed" akechi's offer if it wasn't for his dabbling in cognitive research, which implies that akechi came to shido with the offer of using the cognitive world to further his goals!!
you can easily extrapolate from there that akechi knew exactly what he was capable of doing in the cognitive world, and most likely had already done it to someone else in the process of discovering his powers!! i find it very unlikely that he would not have approached shido in the first place without knowing exactly what he was capable of, since he states in his meltdown that his entire plan from the beginning was to make shido acknowledge him!!
i also think that nitpicking the exact definition of "mental shutdown" is kind of missing the point!! he's forcibly putting people into a vegetative state with no known avenue of recovery!! we can learn in the game of at least one character who has been in such a state for a year's time without any sign of improvement!! it's functionally no different than murder!! mental shutdowns are also not beyond akechi's power, since the only prerequisite is killing someone's shadow!!
in regards to the psychotic breakdowns, whether or not they cause death doesn't matter!! akechi "solved the cases" of the psychotic breakdowns, implying that those he persecuted were put in prison for their actions!! their lives are irrevocably ruined because of it!! and it wasn't even just shido's political opponents, since akechi's services were sold out to the highest bidder as shown by okumura!! there's even a news report of a lowly fast food worker having a psychotic breakdown!! ordinary people had their lives ruined by akechi, as well!!
you can easily extrapolate from there that akechi knew exactly what he was capable of doing in the cognitive world, and most likely had already done it to someone else in the process of discovering his powers!! i find it very unlikely that he would not have approached shido in the first place without knowing exactly what he was capable of, since he states in his meltdown that his entire plan from the beginning was to make shido acknowledge him!!
i also think that nitpicking the exact definition of "mental shutdown" is kind of missing the point!! he's forcibly putting people into a vegetative state with no known avenue of recovery!! we can learn in the game of at least one character who has been in such a state for a year's time without any sign of improvement!! it's functionally no different than murder!! mental shutdowns are also not beyond akechi's power, since the only prerequisite is killing someone's shadow!!
in regards to the psychotic breakdowns, whether or not they cause death doesn't matter!! akechi "solved the cases" of the psychotic breakdowns, implying that those he persecuted were put in prison for their actions!! their lives are irrevocably ruined because of it!! and it wasn't even just shido's political opponents, since akechi's services were sold out to the highest bidder as shown by okumura!! there's even a news report of a lowly fast food worker having a psychotic breakdown!! ordinary people had their lives ruined by akechi, as well!!
@Blue Yes，Morgana saidsomething more along the lines of “you care about Joker, do you not?" instead of "you don't hate him†or whatever - point is,
Morgana points out Akechi was getting attached to protag
Morgana points out Akechi was getting attached to protag
I think pure-anon's reasoning that Akechi only saved you so you could make Shido pay in his stead makes a lot of sense.
He was person with unfortunate circumstances.
Never turned around till it was too late .
But at that last second, I felt like he wanted to be redeemed and wash away his past.
Yes, he murder trained everyone but might have come out good in the end.
I also thought the game was gonna pull a "friendships are forever" moment and I'm glad it stuck to giving akechi one final act of true justice .
Tbh, he rubbed me the wrong way through the entire game though .
Never turned around till it was too late .
But at that last second, I felt like he wanted to be redeemed and wash away his past.
Yes, he murder trained everyone but might have come out good in the end.
I also thought the game was gonna pull a "friendships are forever" moment and I'm glad it stuck to giving akechi one final act of true justice .
Tbh, he rubbed me the wrong way through the entire game though .
@pure-anon The exclamation parts are getting to me，haha。
Yes, I'm saying within that scene I do not recall if Akechi said if he both caused mental shutdowns AND turned Shido's opponents psychotic, because I only recall him offering the latter which means he did not offer to murder for Shido in the beginning. I think that is important. Akechi certainly knew what his *beserk powers were doing. Without additional information about the cognitive world, I don't think he realized he could kill shadows and thus people.
I am actually nitpicking the term "psychotic breakdown". I know Akechi did kill people at least eventually. I do not mean to say he should not be held responsible for that either? Same thing with that he ruined people's lives with his berserk powers. When I had originally brought this up, I had merely wanted to clarify he did not kill nor intend to before Shido.
*"mental shutdowns are also not beyond akechi's power" - I know, just when I said Akechi offered his power, I mean he ONLY offered BREAKDOWNS, with no thought his general ability could be used to do anything else, much less kill.
Sorry if I forgot to address anything else。
Yes, I'm saying within that scene I do not recall if Akechi said if he both caused mental shutdowns AND turned Shido's opponents psychotic, because I only recall him offering the latter which means he did not offer to murder for Shido in the beginning. I think that is important. Akechi certainly knew what his *beserk powers were doing. Without additional information about the cognitive world, I don't think he realized he could kill shadows and thus people.
I am actually nitpicking the term "psychotic breakdown". I know Akechi did kill people at least eventually. I do not mean to say he should not be held responsible for that either? Same thing with that he ruined people's lives with his berserk powers. When I had originally brought this up, I had merely wanted to clarify he did not kill nor intend to before Shido.
*"mental shutdowns are also not beyond akechi's power" - I know, just when I said Akechi offered his power, I mean he ONLY offered BREAKDOWNS, with no thought his general ability could be used to do anything else, much less kill.
Sorry if I forgot to address anything else。
Basically? I think Akechi is ok as a character. Understandable background, again especially with the considerations of Japanese society intensified with the melodrama. He's written kinda badly. Pretty shitty as a person, but with the Phantom Thieves offering him back into the group he had room to get better.
Murder, intention or coerced, is never truly "forgivable" Ｉｔｈｉｎｋ。But Akechi from his POV doesn't have much choice after he offered his powers to Shido. He probably would've died himself.
That is my opinion on him.
Murder, intention or coerced, is never truly "forgivable" Ｉｔｈｉｎｋ。But Akechi from his POV doesn't have much choice after he offered his powers to Shido. He probably would've died himself.
That is my opinion on him.
i found it!!
https://youtu.be/F8ymNCQGYkM?t=32m11s
shido: you promoted yourself, saying you had "special powers"
[...]
akechi: i made those troublesome opponents psychotic, and erased any trace of that scandal
shido: who'd think that tampering with a person's heart could trigger a psychotic lapse or mental shutdown
the implication i get from this is that, while akechi performed psychotic breakdowns on the people in question, shido was also informed of mental shutdowns at the same time, which means that akechi would have to been aware of that possibility as well!! i can see how you might disagree, though!!
https://youtu.be/F8ymNCQGYkM?t=32m11s
shido: you promoted yourself, saying you had "special powers"
[...]
akechi: i made those troublesome opponents psychotic, and erased any trace of that scandal
shido: who'd think that tampering with a person's heart could trigger a psychotic lapse or mental shutdown
the implication i get from this is that, while akechi performed psychotic breakdowns on the people in question, shido was also informed of mental shutdowns at the same time, which means that akechi would have to been aware of that possibility as well!! i can see how you might disagree, though!!
Yes, I see how you get that then. I do not recall what Shido says in the original. I'll assume for now it's just as vague as the translation.
This is completely unrelated, but now Akechi is on my mind. He is so formal, always, in the English version. I wonder why they made him so? I think the fact he switches to a casual tone with the Phantom Thieves in Japanese makes him a little more likeable/easier to accept.
I was more concerned about how he always seemed on edge with the group. I mean I guess it makes sense since he was betraying them, but he was on edge with EVERYONE. Even the TV people when he was first introduced.
Ahem.
B u m p, because this is actually a really good discussion, and I'd like more people to get in on this.
B u m p, because this is actually a really good discussion, and I'd like more people to get in on this.
For me, I really like akechi, as an villian and as a friend in our cast.
Mostly because his past kinda explained why he did it and I see more Shido to blame than him.
Also I got betrayed a lot in video game, just look at the tales series.
These characters are the most fun sometimes.
I have an hate love that more is a love for him, because i kinda wish he survived and found his own new justice.
Like he would become a detectiv worthy of being the Succesor to Naoto.
Also because I wish Akihiko, Chie, Makoto, Naoto and him make their own police station.XD
But this is just wishful thinking.
So my opinion. More A tragic villian who should have got a redemtion arc rather than just die.
Mostly because his past kinda explained why he did it and I see more Shido to blame than him.
Also I got betrayed a lot in video game, just look at the tales series.
These characters are the most fun sometimes.
I have an hate love that more is a love for him, because i kinda wish he survived and found his own new justice.
Like he would become a detectiv worthy of being the Succesor to Naoto.
Also because I wish Akihiko, Chie, Makoto, Naoto and him make their own police station.XD
But this is just wishful thinking.
So my opinion. More A tragic villian who should have got a redemtion arc rather than just die.
I have so many mixed feelings about his death. The way it's written felt like a cheap way to seal in the audience's sympathy for Akechi. It would've been cooler to see him accepted back into the team as the shit he is, confronting his father, his role in society, and who he truly is and what he truly wants. The game wouldn't have enough time to show him change completely of course but I think that would be all the more fun to see.
his death scene bothered me a lot!! futaba and haru should have been way more mad and way less accepting!!
I can get Futaba giving him slack and saying that at the time he was just being manipulated by Shido, as it was (from what I've gathered) his first actual kill.
But yeah, Haru had no reason to not just be Yosuke when "interrogating" Namatame.
But yeah, Haru had no reason to not just be Yosuke when "interrogating" Namatame.
He's not completely excusable, but at the same time, he's also not completely inexcusable.
Akechi committed murder, manipulated people and caused havoc both grave and benign. That much is not up for debate. I think it can be acknowledged that he has knowingly and consciously done some straightforwardly terrible things.
That said, even though this is the case, it would be utterly wrong to place the weight of his actions on him alone.
Yaldabaoth's game was rigged from the start, after all--and part of that rigging was intentionally putting Akechi in a position where he would become the agent of destruction that Yaldabaoth needed in play.
Yaldabaoth is not Izanami. It didn't just pick some random guys to grant power to for the sake of observation. It had a direct, malevolent agenda that it intended to achieve, and it very much intended to put an unstable young person in a prime position to become a murderer in order to make sure that agenda was fulfilled.
Goro didn't receive his abilities by accident. He was deliberately chosen to receive power because Yaldabaoth was actively seeking an intelligent yet vulnerable person with nothing to lose to make its "champion".
Essentially: Akechi's actions, though done consciously, were only a natural reaction to the calculated position that he was placed into by a higher power.
Of /course/ he would opt to use his powers to enact a slow-burning revenge on Shido while also vying for even the smallest sign of attention and affection. He was cherry-picked to serve this exact purpose.
Akechi just happened to have all the criteria needed for Yaldabaoth's purposes; if another person had fit the bill, then they would have been guaranteed to be the murderer it needed in play instead.
Akechi committed murder, manipulated people and caused havoc both grave and benign. That much is not up for debate. I think it can be acknowledged that he has knowingly and consciously done some straightforwardly terrible things.
That said, even though this is the case, it would be utterly wrong to place the weight of his actions on him alone.
Yaldabaoth's game was rigged from the start, after all--and part of that rigging was intentionally putting Akechi in a position where he would become the agent of destruction that Yaldabaoth needed in play.
Yaldabaoth is not Izanami. It didn't just pick some random guys to grant power to for the sake of observation. It had a direct, malevolent agenda that it intended to achieve, and it very much intended to put an unstable young person in a prime position to become a murderer in order to make sure that agenda was fulfilled.
Goro didn't receive his abilities by accident. He was deliberately chosen to receive power because Yaldabaoth was actively seeking an intelligent yet vulnerable person with nothing to lose to make its "champion".
Essentially: Akechi's actions, though done consciously, were only a natural reaction to the calculated position that he was placed into by a higher power.
Of /course/ he would opt to use his powers to enact a slow-burning revenge on Shido while also vying for even the smallest sign of attention and affection. He was cherry-picked to serve this exact purpose.
Akechi just happened to have all the criteria needed for Yaldabaoth's purposes; if another person had fit the bill, then they would have been guaranteed to be the murderer it needed in play instead.
I'm of the mind of tragic villain myself, his circumstances before the game starts, the manipulation of his father shido as well the obvious intention of yalbadoath choosing him to be his champion due to his vulnerability add upto a character who was manipulated and kinda forced into doing what he did, even if he thought it was his choice.
I thought sacrificing himself made sense for his character as he doesn't truly hate the PT, he is just jealous of their strength as a team and as close friends and he sees he could never defeat shido alone but doesn't deserve to join then again after how he had betrayed them and his previous actions and so thought in sacrificing himself he might atone in some way by helping them and making sure they promise him to defeat shido in his stead. That being said his Almighty skills would have been great in the last dungeon and I so wanna cosplay his red and white ensemble so I am disappointed that he dies as well :P would a been cool seeing yalbadoaths vhlion fight him in the end :P
I thought sacrificing himself made sense for his character as he doesn't truly hate the PT, he is just jealous of their strength as a team and as close friends and he sees he could never defeat shido alone but doesn't deserve to join then again after how he had betrayed them and his previous actions and so thought in sacrificing himself he might atone in some way by helping them and making sure they promise him to defeat shido in his stead. That being said his Almighty skills would have been great in the last dungeon and I so wanna cosplay his red and white ensemble so I am disappointed that he dies as well :P would a been cool seeing yalbadoaths vhlion fight him in the end :P
Champion*
The dude life's was robbed by Shido. His mother killed herself, he loved her but has to go through hell, he went to several foster homes just get anyone like him but didn't work because Shido finds ways to get him, despite he killed Haru's father up until that very end, Haru would've forgive him.
And Futaba would hate him but in Haru's situation, they both would've​just forgive him. He did nothing absolutely wrong, revenge already be the prime motivator for those Shido already have stolen. Basically, he is a true name of a Thief.
I wouldn't say he died. There's no proof that he did. There's a chance he's very much barely alive in Mementos. We'll have to wait
Could been written much much better. That's my only complain.
@GETBENT I can agree on that.
I love the discussion here.
But for all the people here, I recommend reading this: https://p5spoilersblog.tumblr.com/post/160061674440/on-goro-akechi-v2-ft-screenshot-evidence-because
I think it was well documented and clearly defines with screenshot evidence explaining Akechi.
I hope you have a good read. This person can explain it better than me.
But for all the people here, I recommend reading this: https://p5spoilersblog.tumblr.com/post/160061674440/on-goro-akechi-v2-ft-screenshot-evidence-because
I think it was well documented and clearly defines with screenshot evidence explaining Akechi.
I hope you have a good read. This person can explain it better than me.
Holy shit, this is still on going-
Give something one little push, I guess.
But I do find it interesting that the subject of whether he's still alive or not has been brought up. It's something I considered myself, but didn't break up. One subject at a time, and all.
In my opinion, while I find it unlikely that he's alive, it's not something that can just be dismissed easily.
Give something one little push, I guess.
But I do find it interesting that the subject of whether he's still alive or not has been brought up. It's something I considered myself, but didn't break up. One subject at a time, and all.
In my opinion, while I find it unlikely that he's alive, it's not something that can just be dismissed easily.
***didn't bring up
@The_Soap_Anon That really was a good read. Thank you. They pretty much summed up my thoughts quite thoroughly about Akechi's character amidst all this Akechi Discourse.
As for whether or not he's dead, @Ari3s, I would bet he isn't. But then again, I'd say it could go 50/50 either way since his death was ambiguous at best and we didn't actually see him die right infront of us, just some gunshot sounds. My other reasoning also being that the in game Phansite comments as well as just passing by conversation bubbles said no mention of him being dead but 'missing'. Considering he is a celebrity, you would think that the media would say something to the public, or keep up with their twisted ways under a corrupt network and blamed his death on the PTs, thus discrediting them even further. But instead the media stayed quiet. Honestly, we'll just have to see what Atlus does. Japan seems to love the guy a LOT so I wouldn't put it past Atlus to bring him back in the future in some way, anyhow.
As for whether or not he's dead, @Ari3s, I would bet he isn't. But then again, I'd say it could go 50/50 either way since his death was ambiguous at best and we didn't actually see him die right infront of us, just some gunshot sounds. My other reasoning also being that the in game Phansite comments as well as just passing by conversation bubbles said no mention of him being dead but 'missing'. Considering he is a celebrity, you would think that the media would say something to the public, or keep up with their twisted ways under a corrupt network and blamed his death on the PTs, thus discrediting them even further. But instead the media stayed quiet. Honestly, we'll just have to see what Atlus does. Japan seems to love the guy a LOT so I wouldn't put it past Atlus to bring him back in the future in some way, anyhow.
A valid point, @Anubis. Persona 5's "Schrodinger's cat," if you will.